The United States heavily depends on cattle production, from being a direct food source producing milk and meat, to playing a vital role in the health of grasslands. We need cattle. But as cattle production increases, so do the negative impacts, such as increased cost of meat and deforestation in search of food sources for livestock. Fortunately, there may be a solution. Enter fly larva. Welcome to Research Outside of the Box, a podcast for unconventional, unique, and out-of-the-box research happening at Texas State, and the innovative research approaches faculty use along the way. I'm your host, Kamarie Carter, training specialist for faculty development. And joining us for this episode is Dr.

Merritt Drewery from Applied Animal Science. Hey, Merritt. Hi, Kamarie. Thanks for having me. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, I'm in the Department of Agricultural Sciences here at Texas State University. As you mentioned, I do animal science research. I teach a lot of classes, mainly to students who want to eventually go to vet school or are interested in livestock. I'm a native Texan from Baytown, Texas. And yeah, what else do you want to know? Well, I'm curious to know a little bit about your research. What are you working on recently? So what we've been working on, we're the first research group to evaluate black soldier fly larva as a feed for cattle. And really what our research centers around is novel feeds for livestock. For folks who aren't in agriculture, what is a novel feed? OK, novel feed. So livestock are, by and large, fed in these confined animal feeding operations. And especially cattle, that's what I focus on. They are fed a really grain rich diet. And those grains may come from corn. It may come from soy products and things like this. So a conventional feed is something that would be on the market. Very common, very ubiquitous in ag operations. And we look at novel feeds that are not yet introduced or scaled to a commercial level. So you're doing the beginning part of making that a part of the market, right? The research that goes into determining if that happens later. Yeah, absolutely. Like the feeds we evaluate aren't actually fed to livestock or especially cattle yet. So somebody has to do the research to say it's safe, it's viable. You know, animal performance doesn't diminish. The quality of the animal food product, like the beef, isn't negatively affected. So that's what we do. Cool.

OK, so why black soldier flies? So I know it's it sounds so crazy. It's just so focused like this very one specific fly. I know. Yeah, it is very focused. It kind of just happened. The the commercial insect agriculture market is growing rapidly and it's because insects can be grown with really little inputs in terms of their feed, in terms of the water and the space. And they're really, really nutritious. They have a lot of protein. They can have a lot of fat and other just really attractive nutritional nutritional attributes. But you and I don't want to eat insects, right? And not personally.

No, right. And fly larva doesn't sound great for me either. So so what's happening is this market is scaling with the hopes that, you know, consumers will accept insects into the food chain. And the adoption just isn't happening. And so the idea is, OK, if people won't eat bugs, you know, maybe cattle will. Yeah.

So so that's what we're doing. And, you know, to your question, why black soldier flies? That seems so specific. It's just that's what the industry is rearing. OK. Are they easy to to cultivate, to raise up? And not really sure what that process looks like. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a pretty wild process. But yeah, absolutely. They're easier to cultivate because some of their their natural, I guess, instincts and their physiology makes them really economical and really simple to to raise. And what we've tried it about before is that the hope is that the black soldier fly larva could replace things such as soy in a cow's diet. Is that correct? Why is it important to possibly replace soy? Yeah.

So any conventional feed, you know, like we talked about the the feeds that are currently fed to livestock, especially cattle, they tend to be byproducts from other industries, which is great. But some of the feeds have a really significant environmental footprint associated with them. Maybe they require a lot of agricultural land. Maybe they require a lot of water inputs. They're associated with deforestation. They also can be very expensive and drive up the price of our animal food products. Just due to like overall, it's just not not as sustainable as an option like the larva. Yeah. OK. Yeah. And when we talk about sustainability, it's economic and environmental sustainability. And so just due to like the volatility and those environmental aspects, it's really interesting to consider other feeds that, you know, could maybe be grown indoors with little inputs or also don't compete with the human food sector. OK. Yeah, that makes sense. That's really interesting. So when you when you hear our podcast name research outside of the box, what comes to mind when you hear that phrase? I think all of research is out of the box, personally. Yeah.

I mean, we all just do such such cool, niche things, and that's why I'm so honored to be here. I guess I'm just just far enough along on that kind of weird spectrum. But all researchers have to be really creative and innovative. So I think research in itself is out of the box inherently. Yeah. Along with that theme, how do you feel like your research in particular? We kind of talked about a little bit. How do you feel like that fits within that kind of definition of out of the box? I think it's because, you know, our research number one is very applied. It's not foundational. And I also think it's because, like we said, we do novel things, you know, we're not validating something that is well known or replicating it in just a different animal model. We're the first ones doing the research typically in the groundbreaking research. Yeah.

And, you know, we're like little adrenaline junkies that way. It can get exhausting because it's like, what are we going to chase now? But it is really fun and fresh that way. I love that.

How did you get into this specific research? Well, I guess that goes back to my training as an undergrad and master's researcher. My mentor is Dr. Wickersham at A&M, and I didn't know anything when I came into his laboratory. I had just decided that the path to vet school wasn't going to happen for me. It just wasn't right for what I wanted. And I didn't know what I was going to do. So anyway, you knew you liked animals. I liked animals. I was in animal science. I knew I was interested in research and wanted to do something really sciencey and nutrition oriented and food production oriented. OK, cool.

So I knew those things, but I didn't totally know how or what. And in his lab, we evaluated algae for cattle. And that was really fun. We again, like like the fly larva thing, we were the first at that time to do that. The the work was funded by, I think, the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy.

Yeah, they were interested in taking the oil from the algae, converting it to biofuel, feeding everything else to livestock. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah. So, you know, it never came up to scale to a commercial level, but that was circa 2010, 2012. And my doctoral work, I took a hard left and I totally got out of agriculture. I actually worked with pregnant women and their fetuses slash babies. That is hard. I did the human nutrition research, pregnant women, babies, placentas, catching placentas at 3 a.m. when the women have babies. That was just like a rough four years of my life. OK.

So, you know, it's so funny because with my master's work, you know, you've got your like literal arm in a cow, like shoulder deep. And you're like, it doesn't get worse or dirtier than this. Right.

Yeah. And then I went in the human nutrition lab and I like am literally in the room when women are birthing babies. And I'm like, it got worse. Yeah, it got worse. I like have the placenta like strapped into my front seat in like a biohazard bag, taking it to the lab. It got worse. So so I don't even know what the question was, but how I came back to agriculture. What was there like a deciding factor that you I mean, maybe it was the placenta struck into your driver's seat. But was there a deciding factor to shifting back to animal science? Honestly, it's so weird. So out of my PhD, I didn't want to go to academia. Like, absolutely not. And here you are. Here I am. That's a whole nother story. Love it now. If my department chairs listening. It's great to be very clear.

She loves it. I love it. I really do. But I was just a graduating doctoral student going to take any job kind of thing. And that job just happened to be in agriculture in upstate New York. OK.

And upstate New York was cold. Heard. Yeah, I was in New York during a blizzard. So OK, I can confirm.

So OK, I can confirm. Yes. Yes. For this Texas, Texas native, it was cold. So I lasted two years there. And then I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And I knew I had to come back to Texas. And Texas State had a Department of Nutrition and Department of Ag position open. And I knew I could apply for either. And Department of Nutrition had also called me like two years earlier wanting to interview me, but I had already moved to New York. I just got I was literally unpacking the U-Haul, you know. And so it was like, no, I have to commit. So I'm already here. Yeah, I'm here. Let's just I bought my snow boots, you know. Is there nonrefundable?

Is there nonrefundable? No, no. But anyway, so there are positions in both departments or I guess at school of, you know, nutrition in the School of Family and Consumer Science. But anyway, I don't know what made me just go with Ag. But I was like, you need to choose one. And I just applied for agriculture. I think it's honestly the students, the environment, the idea that we are making food and other products to to feed the world. It sounds like that's kind of where your heart is, your passion is. So maybe your brain recognized that before. Before. I don't know. I just it was like a gut thing where I was like, what am I going to do? And I just applied for agriculture and here we are.

So also, yeah. And I love it. You know, I love liaising with our nutrition, our nutrition faculty and staff here. They're wonderful. But I really appreciate being able to to work in that ag space again. Nice. Well, I know that Texas State is very lucky to have you. And I've heard nothing but wonderful things about you. And I concur. Thank you. Alongside you. So we're glad you're here. Has there been a unforeseen obstacle that happened during maybe the beginning stages or the research stages of this project that you learned something from? OK, so do you want me to talk about like every single day of my life or? We could I don't know. That's going to be a long episode. Strap in everybody. No.

Yeah, there's always obstacles. So the main obstacle coming to Texas State was, you know, we have the wonderful Freeman Center where we have a commercial herd of cattle. We have a cow calf herd. And they're predominantly used for teaching our animal science labs. And we just the nature of that herd, they're grazing, you know, they're out in the field. But we didn't have like a barn to conduct the research. We cows need barns here. Yeah, we need barns. So we didn't have, I guess, let's say the infrastructure totally figured out of how we were going to do these trials. And I also didn't have a lab for the first oh, three, three and a half years of my appointment here. So and it was a lot of it was covid and just, you know, growing pains of the university and just things that, you know, nobody's fault just happened. So being creative, we had to be really flexible and figure out how to find the space, how to work around not having this, you know, infrastructure already there for us. But, you know, it was a wonderful experience because we got to know, you know, the staff out at Freeman Center. Chris Thomas was just absolutely incredible working with us, helping us set up our our infrastructure and shout out to Chris. You get a few shout outs this this podcast. Yeah, no. Oh, my gosh. He was so wonderful. Totally would have failed without him. So, yeah, I think I think the obstacles and, you know, the creative thinking was like, how are we going to make this research happen when nobody's been conducting research like this at Texas State? And I've heard a few people that I've interviewed a few of our other episodes kind of talk about that, about needing patience and flexibility and having to think about a part of the research that is not really what you are going into the research for. For example, I think somebody in one of our episodes had to learn how to be basically a construction worker to learn how to build a facility and learning all these new skills that didn't necessarily were encompassed in the research field that you're in. So I imagine same with you. Oh, yeah.

You know, my students and I, we have gone to Home Depot many times and I've literally with my grants or startups or whatever, bought like a drill, a hammer, like all like we have a full toolset if anybody needs it. Who knew? So, you know, but a lot of it was collaboration. You know, we worked with our Ag Mechanics group to construct some stuff for us. Like I said, Chris did a lot of and his staff out there did a lot of moving things around and constructing stuff for us. So those are obstacles, but they were really good obstacles that helped us just be, you know, better communicators, better collaborators and just get our hands dirty.

Absolutely. Well, folks, I made it back to Freeman Ranch for this episode. If you're not familiar with Freeman Ranch by now, I highly recommend checking out episode one and episode three to learn a little bit more about this important place at Texas State. Dr.

Drewery was gracious enough to introduce me to the biggest troublemakers in her research, a group of five young beef cattle. Now, these cattle are special. They're all cannulated, meaning they all have a cannula or two going straight to their stomachs, specifically to the rumen of the stomach. This cannula allows Dr. Drewery and her team to safely and humanely collect data directly from the cows. Here's a clip from when we were at the ranch. So what was the funding process like to get these guys here? So these guys were funded through USDA grant. It's the United States Department of Agriculture, and it was a grant to evaluate black soldier fly larva as a novel feed. So I paid for these cannulated steers and it's been a great investment because we were able to do that trial and we've done three additional trials since then with the same steers. So these steers will be used for another trial here starting in September. And at that point, we'll see if we'll continue on with them. At some point, they'll get too big for us to economically and safely feed them. And we'll have to get another set. OK. What? Yeah. What is their next step after this project? Do they go on to a different ranch or do they, you know, die? So I wasn't sure how to put that in the podcast for the kids. But, you know, but these these are beef cattle like these are beef cattle. So, yeah, these are beef cattle. And currently the age they're at, they would probably have already definitely already have been harvested for. OK.

So they're beyond the lifespan of typical typical beef cattle. So after this, you know, we're not sure. I definitely have two former students who want to adopt one or all of them. And I said, I'm open to that. Wow. A lot of the steers are, you know, endeared to a certain steer. So we'll we'll explore that. Yeah. But when the time comes. Yeah.

But they'll probably be slaughtered. What advice do you have for other researchers who are maybe working with animals in the lab? What I've learned is, you know, and I think I think everybody who is in research with animals, whether those that be livestock or animals that are being used as human models, I think everybody that works with animals should be and probably is compassionate and pathetic. And we just have to keep in mind the welfare of the animals and make sure we're not doing them harm by, you know, our trial or not. And that's a big piece of why we want to retire these guys after this upcoming trial, just because, you know, we want them to have a have a good life, live their best life. I think what's really unique about what we do is my hair is not. My hair is not hair. Yep. A cow tried to eat my hair there. Like I said, troublemakers. I think what's unique about what we do is what we are evaluating, you know, in the past, we evaluated and we were the first to evaluate black soldier fly larva for cattle. And nobody else was doing that line of inquiry. And now others are following suit. Yeah, they're following suit. They're using our preliminary data and there's much more research in that space about insects as feed for beef and dairy cattle. This fall, we're doing a trial with hemp and cannabinoids, how they're retained in animal tissues after feeding. And not a lot of research has been done there either. So the use of cannulated cattle isn't quite so novel. What's novel is what we are evaluating in them. Speaking of getting your hands dirty, we mentioned that you have a group of cattle. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that, that group and kind of talk about how you are conducting the research using the cattle and the larva? Oh, yeah.

The cattle are pesti. So, yeah, we have cannulated cattle, which means they have like a window, if you will, to part of their stomach, which is the rumen, which is where all the magic happens. That's where the microbes live. The microbes turn all that grass and hay into wonderful beef and, you know, helps the animal grow on something that we can't. So they're surgically altered and they have like this permanent, you know, cannula. And that's important for us because when we test these novel feeds, you know, be it the fly larva or something else that we're working on, we have to access samples from the stomach because that is really what cattle are relying on to do the digestion, the rumen, that part of their stomach. So we're able to open it up, collect whatever samples, close it back. And that gives us a lot of insight into what's actually happening in their digestive system. So what are some kind of things that you're that you're hoping to see when you, you know, give them the larva, take out the rumen? What what are you hoping to see at the end of that? Yeah. We are every time we do a trial, we always make sure there's like a positive control as well. So we would put in the conventional feed. OK. And we want to make sure that the parameters given from the novel feed are the same as that or superior to the conventional feed. So so, yeah, we're just making sure that, you know, fermentation is still happening. They're still producing what's called volatile fatty acids. That's what gives them the energy to grow. And so just making sure that, you know, that rumen microbial system still intact, still firming, the animal still has all the products it needs to grow and be healthy. Awesome.

What are the larger implications of this research? Kind of maybe globally, locally, like what what is why is this important to you? Yeah, everything we do is focused on increasing the sustainability of beef cattle production. And when we really talk about beef cattle production, we're talking about food production. So humans for humans.

Yeah. Yeah. We're trying to produce food that humans want to eat and a more environmental and economically sustainable manner.

OK. So, you know, I think it has major societal implications and, you know, feeding our world and making sure we still have, you know, the environment intact for future generations. And I mean, that's you had mentioned, that's that's what you care about. You care about sustainable nutrition. And so I can see how this is a really good fit. Good.

I'm glad you think so. Yeah. So there's one thing I want to go back to you had mentioned. It's not just you doing this research, of course. Can you tell us a little bit about how you utilize students in your research? Yeah, students are everything in the research. You know, I am I unpopularly say that I'm not here for the research, which I know is tough to hear because we're like, oh, our one rah rah. And that's great. But I'm not here for the research. I'm here to train the students to be researchers. So if I don't I don't know how to say this, but, you know, they are involved in the ideation, the execution, the interpretation and dissemination of the data like they are there from, you know, they don't sometimes they'll help me write grants a little bit or ideate on it. But, you know, once we get the grant, once we get the money, whatever, they are there from day one all the way to the end. So I think that, you know, we really need to rely on and leverage our students. They often have really great ideas or perspectives that, you know, I don't have because I have blinders on as we all do. Yeah, we get focused on our niche area or our passions. And there's such a there's a bigger world out there. Absolutely.

I have one student right now. We'll give her a shout out, Emma Fakuta. She is doing her master's trial and she really came up with the idea herself, you know, and she wanted to do these new samples that I'd never done. Basically, we're taking fat tissue from the cattle and we're analyzing components of that fat tissue. And I said, I have the money if you can figure out how to do it. And I was like, no way. Like I didn't really want to do it, let's be honest. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, you know, that'll that'll be a big stop sign for her. But now she figured it out. She figured it out. And so I know, I know. So I was like, OK, I can't be lazy. I've got to I've got to figure this out to your toes. Oh, she. Yeah, she does. So so we're doing that analysis. And now we've integrated it into another student's trial in the fall. So just from having Emma and allowing her to, you know, have some say into her trial and listen to her perspectives, I now have a new skill set, a new dynamic to my lab. That's so cool. Yeah. And you said that you're here to teach students how to be researchers. What advice do you have for other faculty who feel that way, too? Like they're they're passionate about what they're researching, but they're also really, really passionate about making and making researchers and developing researchers. What advice do you have about working with students? You know, if somebody already knows they're passionate about it, I don't think I have a lot of advice because they're already doing a great job. I'm sure, you know, like if you're really passionate in here for the students right on, you're probably doing a really good job. But if somebody is newer to working with students, I would tell them just to be patient and just to listen, you know, and meet students where they are. And, you know, not not all students are coming in with the same background, the same skill set, and we have to be really patient and remember that they all don't know how a pipette works. And we've been using them for, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20, 30 years. And so that always takes me back because I try to have, you know, a few undergrads come into the lab every year so that we start training them again. And I'm always like, right, you know, brings it down to a level of humility and remembering when you were there.

Yeah, it does. And so that, yeah, Kamarie, like you just brought it back together. I think we all need to remember where we came from. And that's why I talk about my time as an undergrad researcher and my mentor so much because I remember how much he did for me. And I just want to be that person for other students. And so just remembering that always brings me back. And any time I start getting frustrated with my students, I have to put myself in to check. That's a good remark. And I mean, it's human to get frustrated, but it also is a part of our role as educators to step back, breathe and give them the space to learn, because that's what the institution is for. Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of want to switch directions for a second. You had mentioned that while you are working on the fly larva feed, you've got some other things that are coming up or that you're doing. Do you want to kind of give us a sneak peek into those? OK, we can talk about the terpenes. So terpenes are naturally occurring plant metabolites. So it's naturally in the plant. And it's also like if you go by essential oil, you know, lemony, lemongrass, whatever essential oils are there. Or I'm sorry, terpenes are in that essential oil. OK, so we are working with an isolated terpene time all from the from the time plant. And we're interested in does it change the rumen microbiome? And if it does, does it reduce the methanogenic bacteria that are there? OK, yeah. Well, now I want to know if that's it. We don't know those. Stay tuned. Those samples are in the negative 20 freezer. Ah, gotcha.

Nice. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, methane gets a lot of attention being a negative thing. And so we're trying to see if this dietary strategy and this supplement reduces the bacteria that are responsible for producing methane. That's really cool. You mentioned hemp, which I'm sure is very interesting to many people. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah, hemp is really cool. You know, historically, it has not been legal to grow hemp in the United States because it got coupled with marijuana in terms of its THC level. THC being that psychoactive cannabinoid that, you know, elicits, I guess, the high feeling when it's consumed. But hemp has very, very low THC. So recent farm bills and other initiatives have allowed hemp to be legally grown here in the US. And hemp is a really cool, multipurpose crop. It grows well, it requires very little inputs. It is one of these things that we look towards for sustainability. A huge issue with hemp entering the animal feed chain, though, is the cannabinoids. OK.

Because the hemp does have some cannabinoids and it can have THC, albeit at a very, very low level. So we're interested in when cattle consume hemp, what happens to the cannabinoids? Preliminary research from others, we know that the cannabinoids go into the plasma and probably the fat tissue. But we don't know how long it sticks around. So here in the fall, one of our grad students will be feeding hemp to cattle. We'll be targeting a certain CBD, a that's a cannabinoid CBD, a CBD, a level. And we're going to take different blood, we're going to take blood draws at different time points, we're going to sample the fat tissue of the steers over a period of, you know, two or three months. And we're going to see where the cannabinoids go, how are they metabolized and are they retained in the tissue? And this is really key for hemp to enter as an as a livestock feed. Because it sounds like if it could enter as a livestock feed, that opens the door for, like you said, more sustainable options for cattle, specifically beef cattle, which could help us in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, hemp is grown for for the oil, you know, like you see the products everywhere, right? The CBD oil, we see there CBD creams, lotions, lotions. But that comes from a very small component of the plant. So what are we going to do with the rest of the plant? Since we're growing more and more for the oil itself. And so it ties into that industry as well. Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Mm hmm. What advice would you give to yourself as a beginner researcher in the field? Maybe like first, your assistant professor. What advice would you give yourself regarding research? I would tell myself to relax a little bit. You know, I was so stressed out about as we talked about, I never planned on entering academia and like the first day at my desk, I literally googled how to be a professor, which is so horrible. I know do the same. I've done the same thing. It's so bad.

It's so bad. It's so bad that I had a friend who's at A&M Kingsville and I emailed her. She had taken her faculty position a few years earlier and I emailed her and I was like, hey, Natasha, I'm a professor, too. Like, what's up, you know, and what what should I do? And she was like, oh, what grants are you writing this year? And I was like, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't even know I needed to write a grant. Like, what?

Like, what? Yeah. So a lot coming at you at once that first year.

It is. And and so, yeah, I don't think I slept for like three nights trying to figure out what grants to write, but it all worked out. But I was so just stressed out and worried. I remember counting on my fingers like, OK, where are my publications going to come from for tenure and promotion? And I just thought that I had this whole five year plan. And wow, no, I didn't. Because like we talked about new students come in your lab and they have new ideas or the literature emerges so rapidly. So I tell myself to relax that you have good ideas. You're creative.

You know, it's going to be OK. And I would remind myself just to keep an open mind, you know, even into my I just finished my fourth year. But even into my third year, I would stress out like, OK, I don't know where my next project is going to be or where it's going to come from. And now I feel a little less stressed because I know that I have amazing collaborators. We have amazing students. We have good infrastructure here. So like the ideas will come. The collaborations will come and the projects will come. So just relax. Take your, you know, take your hands off of the thing to get loose in your your tight grip and just let it naturally holistically occur. I love that.

That's really good advice. Thank you. Yeah. Well, do you feel like there's anything that that we didn't talk about yet that you'd like to talk about regarding research, their approach to research or your specific research in general? No, I just, you know, really want to emphasize and thank, you know, the collaborators, the students. I always feel so silly, not silly, but I feel like a fraud doing these podcasts because I'm like, talk to the students. You know, they're they're the ones that really like make this worthwhile and like keep me coming back because like I said, it's not about the research for me. Yeah. But I just try to do really cool research so I can get money and get cool students and do cool things with the students. So that's so yeah, I just, you know, think I just thank them a lot. And yeah, I just thank all the collaborators. And I am I always like to put a plug in. You know, I'm really open to collaboration and working with others. Yeah. Plug it. Yeah. And, you know, Covid was tough. I started like it was tough. Number one period.

Yeah. But we'll stop. Yeah. I started in fall 2019 and oh, March 2020. Here we go. And you had like two seconds here. Yeah. And so I feel that, you know, getting to know a lot of the colleagues, you know, my colleagues, especially these early career tenure track faculty was really stunted. And we're trying to recoup, you know, and have these events. But you don't get that time back. So I just, you know, really encourage and welcome any collaboration. Anybody wants to get tea or everybody knows I like wine. So I'll just say, you know, have some wine. I'm always here, you know, and really want to get to know and work with other people. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I'll definitely keep that in. OK. Anything else you want to leave us with today? No, I'm just so excited to be here. And I'm really thankful for you, Kamarie, and faculty development and Dr. Hastings for everything you all do and for taking the initiative with this podcast.

It's really cool. Thanks. Thank you so much, Merritt, for coming. You are a joy to talk with. We we really love hearing about your research, but also just like visiting with you because you're a cool person. Thank you.

All right. Bye, everybody. Bye. Thanks for joining us today. This podcast project is sponsored by Faculty Development. Using YouStar studios at Alkek One on the hill and the bright and beautiful San Marcos, Texas. Thank you to all the faculty who are making amazing strides in your research. We hope you join us next time. And until then, stay curious and dare to research outside of the box.